DENNIS CONRAD INTERVIEW

Where YOU ask the questions

CasinoDealers.Net interviews Dennis Conrad, President and Chief Strategist of Raving Consulting Company of Reno, Nevada. He is a graduate of Stanford University and is a frequent lecturer, speaker and columnist who has earned many industry awards for his work. In his career he has worked his way up from Casino Dealer to Corporate Vice President. He specializes in strategic marketing and is known for his always entertaining common sense observations about the gaming industry. His book, Conrad's Corners: Uncut and Uncensored is a must read informative collection of his published articles.

Ryan - dealer - Las Vegas

How do bikini dealers factor in your best/worst promotions list. The tables at the Rio seem to be full. The ladies can't deal but who the hell cares?

They certainly merit consideration, in fact anything that addresses our stagnant table games business is worth a look. Unfortunately, I have seen some lousy bikini pits where the dealers look like they were chosen by Stevie Wonder, and when they add some hunks for the lady blackjack players, then I think it will be less sexist and more worthy.

ZZYZX - Supervisor - Las Vegas, NV

Dennis Conrad, your detailed bio didn't say what you graduated from Stanford in but, since you didn't correct Scott's opening question, I'm guessing that you did graduate in something. Based on your personal casino experience, what would you say was the best attribute to carry into a budding casino marketing career?

A college education? A customer-oriented knowledge of table games? Or, as I suspect was your own trump card, an ability and penchant for smacking a little ball about a field with a stick? Won't you come clean and admit that a person (male at least) who has no desire to ever participate in the loosely-termed "sport" of golf, would indeed have to be a raving looney to think that he had an ice titleist's chance in Shadow Creek of ever getting on in your casino area?

Yes I did graduate with a BA degree in Political Science. Certainly being a proficient golfer has helped me in my casino career, but it would be too simple an answer to say that there is this little closed circle of executive casino golfers out there who make all of the decisions on who gets ahead based on whether they golf with the boss or not. The real skill is the ability to build relationships with the right executives, whether that is on the golf course, in the EDR, at the health club or at the bar after work (a much better place than the golf course). The key factors in breaking into a casino marketing career, in my opinion, in order are:
1. Common sense

2. A customer focus.

3. An ability to build effective relationships with employees, customers, EVERYBODY!

4. A college degree in anything (this has become more important in the last few years as more casino companies are trying to professionalize their management staff).

5. Some background on the principles of effective marketing, and not just traditional advertising crap.

6 A meaningful mentor.

7. A willingness to do whatever it takes and work your ass off.

8. Taking any marketing position that becomes available, no matter how seemingly trivial. There is a lot of learning in the players club rep position.

A.H., PB, Steubenville

I believe that it is 100% incorrect to base customer service improvements and/or marketing promotions solely on what might be perceived by the customer (and
hopefully, the bottom line) as a benefit. A "benefit" that is destined, in reality, to become a dealer frown is no benefit to anyone. I notice that you don't generally take the ordinary dealer's point of view into account when you conjure up your ideas, but don't you honestly think that those wonderful, really-put-a-fine-edge-on-the-technical-boredom-of-it-all innovations, such as matchplay coupons, and the frowning opportunities that they present for the otherwise pleasant dealer, are sometimes rushed onto the floor without having been fully examined? In an industry that is fond of reiterating that the employees (and the service they provide) make or break a casino, shouldn't the marketing department have more to do with "marketing" those assets rather than the physical or psychological product? Shouldn't casino marketing's cardinal rule be: "First do no harm...from the staff's point of view"? 

I agree with you on the typical disconnect between operations and marketing. Effective strategic marketing plans have three strong pillars:
CUSTOMERS, EMPLOYEES and COMMUNITIES. Good marketing is an integration - the best casino promotions in the world would never work if people came in and clueless or disinterested employees just ran them off. I believe strongly that employees throughout a casino property should not only be consulted in the design and implementation of casino promotions, but also that they should be brought into the loop on the "why's" and the results of the promotions and how important their efforts are in making them successful. But of course I also believe that this would involve changing the job description for most casino front line positions to include more sales and relationship building, and yes more pay when this is executed in a measurable way.

Kenny - TGS - Atlantic City 

I can envision the day when casinos are moved by the threat of litigation to change the way we market to customers. Do you feel that the class action law suits against  tobacco companies should be a wake up call to the casino industry in our marketing efforts in our current state or are we going to wait until its too late, like the tobacco industry did? 

Yes, I think you are right. In one of the sessions at G2E last year, one of the speakers mentioned that there are currently something like eight world wide litigations involving casinos, mostly compulsive gambling cases. Casinos Austria was also dealt the first legal setback in the casino industry recently, although I'm sure that will be long and drawn out on appeal. I think the industry has gotten its head out of the sand on these issues, but still has a long way to go, not only on problem gambling issues but also on second hand smoke issues and several other casino specific issues. It is funny what a few good lawsuits can make happen. 

D M - TGS - Las Vegas, NV

Where I work it seems that every other year or so the marketing department somehow convince the "powers that be" that changes must be made in casino operations. It seems that we must follow suit like little sheep, have tons of meetings, change shit around and ALWAYS end up back at square one exactly where we started. Why can't marketing just do marketing, get folks in the door and leave operations people alone?

My response is similar to the one above. Again, I don't think the answer is to leave the individual casino departments more departmentalized, but to integrate them around a common vision of providing a great, seamless experience for the guests. That takes more interaction between departments, not less. For instance, I believe that a great marketing program could involve having casino guests spending less time in cage lines. It is something that really matters to casino guests (trust me, we've talked to thousands of them), it has a great marketing result (guests spend less time in line and more time in action), and it is probably not too hard to execute. But in the current casino environment, if you took your "CAGE LINE MARKETING PROGRAM" to the CFO, you'd probably get laughed at and thrown out on your ear.

Debra - Dealer - Las Vegas

In direct relationship to table games marketing how does the following come into play in a small 'locals' type of casino? We are expanding into these areas and although it bring more customers into the door will it make that much of a difference in the pits? 

A bingo room

A movie theater complex

Separate poker room (away from the main pit)

A night club

The argument here is with this expansion they will increase the amount of table games and there wont be much difference in dealer income. 

Anything that creates more traffic near or at a casino's front door has the capability of increasing table game business, but the question is "how much, and how likely are they to develop into pit players?" From my experience with numerous casinos (not to be taken as formal consulting advice), a bingo room and a movie theater will do very little for the tables. A poker room will be a little better but not much, as most poker players are dedicated poker players. Strangely, a night club might have some potential with a younger crowd, but they have to be welcomed, instructed and made to feel that table games is "cool." Much like the Hard Rock has been able to accomplish. So you are probably right, table game business will go up slightly and dealer tokes will either be only marginally better or go down.

Anne - Dual-Rate -  Las Vegas

There are obvious differences of opinion. Casino operations call it gambling, Marketing calls it gaming. Casino operations wants dealers with technical skill, marketing wants "dealers as the entertainer" - And we reject that idea. We don't want to be entertainers.  The floor supervisors and pit managers don't want entertainers dealing and REAL GAMBLERS don't want to be entertained! They only want to WIN MONEY!! What the hell is so wrong with simply being nice and greet the customer, be cordial and professional?  

You are right that real gamblers don't want to be entertained, but more and more social gamblers and newbies do. I don't see why you can't provide both experiences.

Bill, Dealer - Biloxi

Can a craps tournament jump start a very slow dice pit? We have poker tournaments and BJ tournaments but management (and the dice dealers) don't think a craps tournament would offer the same results. Your opinion?

Crap tournaments are tough nuts to crack, they attract an experienced and savvy craps tournament element that tend to run off most of the regular craps players who even try a tournament. The problem is that craps tournaments are only attractive to a very small percentage to craps players. Consider trying something that is more appealing to a wider audience. Perhaps that is a "live tournament shootout concept" where craps players play with their own money like they usually play and there is no advantage to a skilled player. I like the Craps for Cash concept that they use at Gold Strike in Tunica and in Jean, Nevada. There is a large bonus if a crapshooter makes all the numbered points in a particular craps hand. Think of things that would be attractive for the average player.

Fred - Poker Dealer - California

Do the cutting edge marketing tactics of say the Hard rock Casino in Vegas really work in terms of table game hold percentage? The controversial "Buck all night" promo targeting NFR rodeo fans with a picture of a woman's panties at her ankles next to a pair of cowboy boots or the ads with the topless women holding a die in front of each nipple. Does this get gamblers in the door and do they play craps? 

Or is it simply shock value marketing?

I disagree that this is "cutting edge" marketing, it is just the blatant selling of sex and in fact the Hard Rock was fined for their advertising by the Nevada Gaming Commission. I doubt if it brings gamblers in the door but it might attract a few horny guys.

BH; TGS Norwich Conn

I'm at a loss here. Why would a casino hire an outside table games marketing expert such as yourself when they have a marketing staff of their own? Doesn't this cause animosity when trying to work with these people? 

Good question. I guess the self serving answer is that we are really good and can offer something that their marketing staff cannot. The real answer probably is though, that some marketing executives aren't real savvy or experienced and we offer a perspective or a skill that they don't have. It can cause some animosity with our client marketing staffs, but the smart ones realize that we are there to help them if they let us (besides, it is the GM who typically hires us, so they tend to act thrilled that we are there). 

Greg: TGS Lake Tahoe

Clearly the ultimate table games marketing tool is television. Look what the World Poker Tour has done for the game and now Max Rubin has the World Series of Blackjack on cable television. Why not craps? Why not YOU?

The ultimate table games marketing tool, in my opinion, is a staff of highly motivated, knowledgeable, super friendly casino dealers and staff. I agree that if done right, a world series of blackjack on cable tv could stimulate some interest in blackjack. I think craps is probably to complex to simplify on tv for the layman and that viewers would probably get frustrated and blow it off.

SW - Dealer- Norwich Conn

Doesn't being from Reno where the casino industry has hit hard times impede your efforts in any way?

Reno has certainly been pounded by Indian gaming in its feeder markets, but there are probably a dozen casinos that are doing quite well, those that have any significant locals business. You would think that the others who are being hammered would be beating down our doors (and some slowly have started to), but most of them are tied to old thinking and probably prefer to go down with the ship than bring in someone with new ideas.

As far as our company being associated with Reno, it is probably a wash. It helps us (especially with tribal casinos) "not being Vegas," but may hurt us a little in Vegas, although that is short sighted on their part. 

Fred - Dealer - San Diego, Ca

I have an "out of the box" idea for your company Mr.Conrad. I was reading about the owner of this site organizing a poker tournament for the Vegas dealers and it gave me an idea. We all know that the best marketing efforts will not work unless the staff has a positive attitude. Employee moral is or should be a key factor. 

What I suggest is wherever you get your next contract, have management arrange a series of tournaments for the dealers and floor staff. A BJ tournament, Pia Gow, roulette, craps, poker, Let it Ride, 3 card. All the games on the floor. (Even a slot tournament)

Make these tournaments available on the slowest periods for all table games employees and keep this program alive year round maybe once a month. I will wager that what ever awards are given out and all the expense and hassle that comes with it will be a good investment with measurable results. What do you think?

I agree that employee tournaments are a great idea and I used them successfully at several casinos. They work best when the head honchos actually work the tournament. At Harrah's Las Vegas, our senior execs dressed up in the uniforms of all the employees normally associated with the tournament (dealers, cocktail servers, porters, pit supervisors, etc.). Alcohol also helps the concept, for some strange reason (but be careful here - I could tell you some stories!). I would be careful about having too many events across too many strange games. I would think that one employee blackjack tournament and one employee slot tournament would be plenty to attract the widest audience of employees, and not get stale. Also, rather than making it free, I suggest that all employees pay a small entry fee and then the casino matches the prize money. When everyone has a small investment, you get a more committed group of participants. Great idea, hope your casino can make it happen. By the way, we will be at Barona from April 25-27 and if that is your casino, you may find me bellying up to your table. I'll be the asshole playing the "press till you lose" system.

Cynthia, BJ spc., Down Under
Mr Conrad, you like to use the collective term, "guests" and to hazard guesses as to what that group wants. Why would your guesses be more likely to be correct than those of the average dedicated floor employee having, say, 10+ years experience? Why do you think you know more about casino "guests" (for the US alone, that's millions of INDIVIDUALS per year) and their wants, than the people who have to manage them daily without the aid of a comp ticket book? Surely, as stated before, employee satisfaction is the key to providing broad guest satisfaction - not guessing what "guests" want.

I don't mind you challenging my credentials. It happens all the time, probably because there are too many consultants that have no real gaming experience in the trenches. But I can tell you that I worked in casinos for 17 years, 8 of which were as a dealer. As part of our marketing work we do focus groups with casino customers, casino frontline employees and casino executives - we have literally talked to thousands of these folks around the world. And I am also an avid customer of the casinos, especially like to play craps and blackjack, so that probably gives me several hundred more casino employee interactions every year. So no, I don't deal with millions of individuals, but I would suggest that not only do I have a pretty good handle on what guests want, but I am very uniquely qualified to offer those opinions. And I can sum it up for you simply: over and over, guests say "let me win," "don't make me wait," and "be nice and appreciate me."

Rocker TGS Las Vegas

You wrote: "The ultimate table games marketing tool, in my opinion, is a staff of highly motivated, knowledgeable, super friendly casino dealers and staff"

When individuals leave a dealing school to enter the work force they are all "super friendly", afterwards they become "knowledgeable" in their environment. It is only after attaining this knowledge they lose motivation, and we all know why.

In your professional opinion sir, perhaps you can give a few examples of how to get the dealers and floor supervisors "highly motivated" [Again]- In my 20 years in this business I have yet to see anyone accomplish this task. Only the threat of discipline and or termination has always been the deciding factor on delivering the smiling mask you see upon the faces of the pit staff. 

This is not a simple issue but involves a host of complex strategies and tactics. The hiring process must really be nailed down to really stress hiring for attitude. The general manager (or some very senior executive) needs to really lead the charge and live the behavior that he or she seeks. There needs to be continuous, extensive training, especially training in how to effectively interact with all sorts of customers. There needs to be standards and protocols and they need to be followed. The bad apples need to be weeded out very aggressively and managers need to learn to spend 90% of their time with their best employees (coaching, encouraging, praising, etc.) instead of spending 90% of their time with the worst employees. There needs to be a meaningful recognition program in place that is driven by the people who are being recognized. And most importantly, a way must be found to allow all employees to have a significant say in how they best do their jobs. This is a very extensive process but to create meaningful work, it has to happen.

BB; Occupation, hometown not disclosed

I took the time to read your articles that accompany the interview. I must say that if I wasn't such a trusting soul, I would definitely have doubts about your claim to having been a dealer, and a craps dealer at that, for 10 years prior to entering the casino marketing field. You may be able to sell your "over the rainbow" dreams of the ideal table games area to Harrah's one-week trained executives, but do you
really expect the people who work in those areas - in real life - to buy them? 

Not those with attitudes like the one you express in your question.

I.I., TGS, Upper Heights

Craps is what it is BECAUSE of the environment that is generates and has always generated. It's the rough-houser from the streets that married into Monte Carlo society but didn't forget its roots. Craps players may be collectively and justly termed whatever the opposite of "the salt of the earth" is and a crap game is a battlefield by client demand. Craps dealers realize this but perversely come to see that things couldn't change and, even if they could, that they wouldn't want them to. Anyone who has dealt craps for a while should know that. Did you forget?

Do you really believe that a craps table can be made into a permanently friendly environment for anyone - players, novices or employees? Do you really think that, "with the right employees" craps can become a Disneyland experience for all and sundry and still be craps? 

I actually agree with you on what the environment is currently at the crap table - a little rough around the edges, a little bit "us vs. them," even a little snarly. I LOVE that environment as you obviously do too. My point is however that we need to change it if we are going to attract new business and not watch the game die because little old ladies, twenty-somethings and other newbies out there don't want to deal with that "classic craps atmosphere" that is, frankly, quite intimidating. While it might not be Disneyland, it certainly would be something that rivals it for fun and customer focus. No, this isn't too surprising. 

Sara - Occupation, hometown not disclosed

Scott, this isn't so much a question for your interview with Dennis Conrad it is more of an observation. Your message board got all kinds BS slamming this guy or I should say who this guy represents. (Marketing) 

I feel by reading all this stuff that the problem lies more with casino operations unwillingness to adapt to the rapid changes that are going on in the industry more so than the other way around. What this whole topic brings to light is that there will always be problems no matter what good ideas marketing brings to the table - if table game managers continue to sweat the money and treat their staff like shit. I feel for this guy and his peers. He has a tough job with many unnecessary roadblocks.

Thanks for the kind words. My job really isn't all that tough (remember, I get to LEAVE an organization eventually or can tell them to go to hell whenever I want). But the process of producing really effective marketing does go through all of the operational departments and does have to deal with the roadblocks that you so aptly described. Effective gaming organizations of the future will find a way to blend marketing and operations, because it is all one integrated process. Every single employee has an important role to play in the marketing process. A marketing director can come up with a great promotion that brings people in, but if a dealer runs them off or acts clueless, nothing has been gained. Conversely, a marketing director can put out some stupid table game coupons that slow up the game and tick off the dealers, but if the dealers handle those coupons and those customers with knowledge, patience and caring, then that was a pretty effective damn promotion.

Scott Cameron - CasinoDealers.Net

Thank you for your time Dennis. Any closing thoughts?

Yes, I found this to be a worthwhile exercise. I know you were hoping for a "peek behind the curtain" on what it is really like to work in casino marketing, but obviously your readers had a lot of venting to do. That's okay. I see a lot of this polarization and us vs. them attitude in the work that we do. It is one of the significant barriers in creating effective marketing - convincing the operators and the frontline employees that they are extremely important, no make that CRITICAL to the process.

I can tell that dealers haven't changed an awful lot since I was in the trenches. They are still very opinionated and not afraid to speak their minds. A good operator would be tapping into that energy. In my opinion, you should always allow the readers to ask questions. The interviews will go wherever they go, but at least readers will feel a chance to be part of the process. I did feel that several of the questions were good, even some of the negative ones. When I do focus groups with employees (including many dealers), we often have to deal with some venting before we can get to a productive, rational discussion. Most of your readers need to vent and that is not a bad thing, but it would be good to get them past that to a more constructive phase.

My experience also confirms that there remains a lot of education to be done regarding marketing. Some of the questioners felt like marketing was advertising, or marketing was something done in some cave by marketing people. I'll say it again, the definition of marketing (right out of the dictionary) is "ALL business activity involved in the moving of goods or services from the producer to the consumer, including advertising, selling, packaging, ETC." Look at the first word and the last word in the definition. Every single casino employee, front of the house, back of the house, you name it, has a hand in the marketing process. Whether they want to or not. Whether they can get past their anger toward the marketing department or not. Whether they are a dealer, or a cocktail server, or a porter or a dishwasher, or a general manager. Those of your readers who embrace this thought and bring value to the guest experience and the marketing process, are poised for success.

Thanks again, I believe you are providing a valuable service to the gaming industry. If you were able to broaden your reach to include all casino employees, I think you could be effective in building some important bridges between departments. But initially, I think that the reaction you would get in frank discussions among all casino departments, would make my questions look like softballs. Good luck in your work. Dennis Conrad

Interview complete

Return to HOME PAGE

My Gift to Table Game Operators 

A Casino Full of Raving Fans

THOU SHALT STEAL

The Ultimate Party Pit 

Casino Marketing
By Dennis Conrad

From The Heart Of The Gulf Coast
To The Atlantic City Shore,
To The Strip In Las Vegas
And Tribal Casinos Galore.

To Gambling Salons In Europe
And African Casinos In View,
To Gambling Halls In Australia,
South America, Asia, Canada Too.

Everyone Is Gambling,
At Least That's How It Seems,
Seeking The American...
No, The World Wide Dream.

All They Want Is A Fun Time
With A Decent Chance To Win.
They Want Cheerful Employees,
Comfy Chairs, Clean Air, Maybe Some Gin.

I'm Afraid What We've Done Though
Is Listen To Ourselves.
Cash Back, Promotions,
Cheap Stuff From Our Shelves.

Changing Floor Layouts,
With Cash Drawings Daily,
Free Rooms, Bounce Backs, Coin Offers
No Wonder We're Wailing.

Just Ask Your Customers
They'll Tell You Their Wishes.
They Are Guests With Simple Needs
Not Some School Of Fishes.

So When The Heat Really Is On
And The G.M.'S At The Door
Shout, 

"We're Listening To Our Guests.
We Haven't Tried That Before!"